Comments on: Obama expands program checking immigration status at local jails http://www.mediahacker.org/2009/05/obama-expands-program-checking-immigration-status-at-local-jails/ Propaganda antidote Fri, 12 Mar 2010 03:38:46 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: Jay http://www.mediahacker.org/2009/05/obama-expands-program-checking-immigration-status-at-local-jails/comment-page-1/#comment-212 Jay Wed, 10 Jun 2009 20:11:34 +0000 http://www.mediahacker.org/?p=833#comment-212 1. A good newspaper opinion piece cites their statistics. Besides, don't you have editorial powers here? 2. I’ll concede the “presumably committed a crime” point but the police still have an obligation to determine the identity of the arrested, though. If that person is found to be in the country illegally, what should they do? 3. Please elaborate on your 'case-by-case' defense of my Canada points. 4. Aristide was supported by the US (I believe his "kidnapping" claims to be less than believable). Allende was a Marxist. Arbenz is a legitimate example but even he was left-leaning and feared to be a communist sympathizer. Regardless, it still seems like a reach to protest a relatively sane domestic policy based on Cold War atrocities and a rumored US-backed coup in Haiti. 1. A good newspaper opinion piece cites their statistics. Besides, don’t you have editorial powers here?
2. I’ll concede the “presumably committed a crime” point but the police still have an obligation to determine the identity of the arrested, though. If that person is found to be in the country illegally, what should they do?
3. Please elaborate on your ‘case-by-case’ defense of my Canada points.
4. Aristide was supported by the US (I believe his “kidnapping” claims to be less than believable). Allende was a Marxist. Arbenz is a legitimate example but even he was left-leaning and feared to be a communist sympathizer. Regardless, it still seems like a reach to protest a relatively sane domestic policy based on Cold War atrocities and a rumored US-backed coup in Haiti.

]]> By: Ansel http://www.mediahacker.org/2009/05/obama-expands-program-checking-immigration-status-at-local-jails/comment-page-1/#comment-123 Ansel Tue, 26 May 2009 03:53:00 +0000 http://www.mediahacker.org/?p=833#comment-123 Jay, show me your opinion piece published in the newspaper where you're able to include a citation for every statistic - then maybe I'll take your instructions seriously. You're stunningly patronizing here. If they're in jail they've been picked up by the police. That's all. They have not "presumably" committed any crime. Innocent until proven guilty, yes? I'm not a fan of nation-states in general. I'm not going to make blanket statements about Canadians being deported or deporting others. Case by case basis. I'm skeptical that you understand the extent of US imperialism in Latin America. It wasn't about "sponsoring any anti-communist regime." Arbenz, Aristide, Allende, to take a few examples - they weren't communists. And the men who replaced them quickly became mass-murderers, funded and equipped by the U.S. government. This sort of material and political support <a href="http://www.soaw.org/" rel="nofollow">for</a> <a href="http://narcosphere.narconews.com/notebook/kristin-bricker/2008/07/us-private-contractor-leads-torture-training-mexico" rel="nofollow">oppression</a> by undemocratic regimes continues to this day. Rather than have this comment section become a back-and-forth between us, please keep your response very brief and e-mail me if you want to continue this discussion or the one about hip-hop at length. Jay, show me your opinion piece published in the newspaper where you’re able to include a citation for every statistic – then maybe I’ll take your instructions seriously. You’re stunningly patronizing here.

If they’re in jail they’ve been picked up by the police. That’s all. They have not “presumably” committed any crime. Innocent until proven guilty, yes?

I’m not a fan of nation-states in general. I’m not going to make blanket statements about Canadians being deported or deporting others. Case by case basis.

I’m skeptical that you understand the extent of US imperialism in Latin America. It wasn’t about “sponsoring any anti-communist regime.” Arbenz, Aristide, Allende, to take a few examples – they weren’t communists. And the men who replaced them quickly became mass-murderers, funded and equipped by the U.S. government. This sort of material and political support for oppression by undemocratic regimes continues to this day.

Rather than have this comment section become a back-and-forth between us, please keep your response very brief and e-mail me if you want to continue this discussion or the one about hip-hop at length.

]]> By: Jay http://www.mediahacker.org/2009/05/obama-expands-program-checking-immigration-status-at-local-jails/comment-page-1/#comment-122 Jay Mon, 25 May 2009 20:52:14 +0000 http://www.mediahacker.org/?p=833#comment-122 As to your first paragraph: Sure, but it's important to cite your reference, regardless. By not citing a reference, your statistic doesn't actually have meaning since there is no context for it. How big was the study? Where did the study cover? How long was the study? These are all very important questions that affect the validity of the study and they can be easily answered if you simply cite your source. And when you do, the reference becomes much more powerful. As to your second: Presumably, if they are in jail they have broken the law and therefore are "outlaws" on top of being in the country illegally. Legal immigrants can be deported for breaking the law. Why should those entering our country illegally be given immunity to these consequences? I hold great respect for the good-natured and hardworking people coming to the US (even those without permission) in order to make a better life for themselves and ultimately their children. It takes courage and wisdom to attempt such a thing. However, they are well aware of the risks before they enter and if they are arrested for a crime and subsequently deported, I don't think seeing them as victims of US imperialism is apt. Why don't we just blame everything on US imperialism? Oh wait... you don't actually think that, do you? (Maybe, I'm wasting my breath then.) If a Canadian is caught living here illegally after he ends up in jail and ends up being deported, is that inhumane? The US hasn't ravaged the economy, undermined democracy and enabled human rights abuses in Canada, have we? Conversely, should Canada be allowed to deport illegal immigrants who have broken their laws? Canada hasn't sponsored any anti-communist regimes (that I'm aware of), so your reasoning doesn't apply there. You're probably going to be dismissive of these hypotheticals but good policy is underlain by a consistent philosophy. To me, your view seems caught up in a very narrow, and actually misdirected, field of application (ie “unjust” deportation). You must think there is such thing as just deportation, no? As to your first paragraph:
Sure, but it’s important to cite your reference, regardless. By not citing a reference, your statistic doesn’t actually have meaning since there is no context for it.
How big was the study? Where did the study cover? How long was the study? These are all very important questions that affect the validity of the study and they can be easily answered if you simply cite your source. And when you do, the reference becomes much more powerful.

As to your second:

Presumably, if they are in jail they have broken the law and therefore are “outlaws” on top of being in the country illegally. Legal immigrants can be deported for breaking the law. Why should those entering our country illegally be given immunity to these consequences?

I hold great respect for the good-natured and hardworking people coming to the US (even those without permission) in order to make a better life for themselves and ultimately their children. It takes courage and wisdom to attempt such a thing. However, they are well aware of the risks before they enter and if they are arrested for a crime and subsequently deported, I don’t think seeing them as victims of US imperialism is apt. Why don’t we just blame everything on US imperialism? Oh wait… you don’t actually think that, do you? (Maybe, I’m wasting my breath then.)

If a Canadian is caught living here illegally after he ends up in jail and ends up being deported, is that inhumane? The US hasn’t ravaged the economy, undermined democracy and enabled human rights abuses in Canada, have we?

Conversely, should Canada be allowed to deport illegal immigrants who have broken their laws? Canada hasn’t sponsored any anti-communist regimes (that I’m aware of), so your reasoning doesn’t apply there.

You’re probably going to be dismissive of these hypotheticals but good policy is underlain by a consistent philosophy. To me, your view seems caught up in a very narrow, and actually misdirected, field of application (ie “unjust” deportation). You must think there is such thing as just deportation, no?

]]> By: Ansel http://www.mediahacker.org/2009/05/obama-expands-program-checking-immigration-status-at-local-jails/comment-page-1/#comment-121 Ansel Mon, 25 May 2009 16:53:17 +0000 http://www.mediahacker.org/?p=833#comment-121 Jay, multiple studies have found that undocumented folks commit less crime. All it takes is a Google search. Try searching for "immigrants + less crimes + population." It's inhumane to ravage the economies, undermine democracy and enable human rights abuses in other nations, and then treat people like outlaws when they come here to escape the resulting poverty and oppression in their homelands. Jay, multiple studies have found that undocumented folks commit less crime. All it takes is a Google search. Try searching for “immigrants + less crimes + population.”

It’s inhumane to ravage the economies, undermine democracy and enable human rights abuses in other nations, and then treat people like outlaws when they come here to escape the resulting poverty and oppression in their homelands.

]]> By: Jay http://www.mediahacker.org/2009/05/obama-expands-program-checking-immigration-status-at-local-jails/comment-page-1/#comment-110 Jay Wed, 20 May 2009 19:33:55 +0000 http://www.mediahacker.org/?p=833#comment-110 Obviously, inhumane treatment while being detained for any reason is wrong but I don't see how deportation should be out of bounds for people that wind up in our jails (for presumably breaking the law). Isn't the possibility of deportation part of the risk they knowingly take when they enter the country illegally? Yes, this could break up families but that's also a foreseeable risk that is taken by the immigrant, no? Should there be no accountability for disregarding the laws of the country in which you choose to live? Even the point you make about undocumented workers committing less crimes on average than the general population (source?) suggests the immigrant population understands the associated risks to criminal activity. [Don't think too much of my asking about a source, I wonder what the source is any time someone alludes to a statistic (and in this case I use said statistic to aid my argument). As I'm sure you know, not all statistics are created equally, if created at all.] If ICE were to conduct themselves humanely would this still be an issue for you? Why? Obviously, inhumane treatment while being detained for any reason is wrong but I don’t see how deportation should be out of bounds for people that wind up in our jails (for presumably breaking the law). Isn’t the possibility of deportation part of the risk they knowingly take when they enter the country illegally? Yes, this could break up families but that’s also a foreseeable risk that is taken by the immigrant, no? Should there be no accountability for disregarding the laws of the country in which you choose to live?

Even the point you make about undocumented workers committing less crimes on average than the general population (source?) suggests the immigrant population understands the associated risks to criminal activity. [Don't think too much of my asking about a source, I wonder what the source is any time someone alludes to a statistic (and in this case I use said statistic to aid my argument). As I'm sure you know, not all statistics are created equally, if created at all.]

If ICE were to conduct themselves humanely would this still be an issue for you? Why?

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